Digital: Customer Avatars Vs Dynamic Customer Journeys

by | Oct 15, 2021

During their last session for MINT, email marketing experts Rob & Kennedy said Customer Avatars are dead!

Agree or disagree, they’re back to expand on this and tell us why Dynamic Customer Journeys are the way to go.

Today’s presentation is a controversial one. This is the one that gets us death threats and hatred from people all over the internet. About customer avatars. And this, this came about because on the last session we said that customer avatars are dead. They don’t work anymore. And all of that stuff. And then that’s stirred up a bit of controversy. So Nicola’s asked us to come back and chat to you all about all of this stuff.

Watch the training video below…

Transcript of Video


Hello, everybody let us know because we’ve forgotten. Cause it’s been, it feels like it’s been ages since we’ve saw all your lovely faces and some of your not lovely faces as well. So let us know in the chat where are you from? What kind of business you’ve got, have you seen us talk before and anything like that would be good to know. Just so we know where we’re at. And then I’m going to talk about,


Is that sharing the right screen?


It is, yes.


We can’t see your secret notes to yourself about smile. And then it says look sincere or whatever. Say something topical lovely, lovely, lovely, lovely, lovely. All right. Good. Well, hello. It’s it’s us again. Isn’t it. Rob.


It’d be lovely to know, drop us a note in the comments. Have you been to one of our sessions before? Statistically, that’s very likely. If this is your first round with us, that would be cool as well. Just let us know in the chat, be useful to know.


Today’s presentation is a controversial one. This is the one that gets us death threats and hatred from people all over the internet. About customer avatars. And this, this came about because on the last session we said that customer avatars are dead. They don’t work anymore. And all of that stuff. And then that’s stirred up a bit of controversy. So Nicola’s asked us to come back and chat to you all about all of this stuff.


Nicola got on her high horse, or as she likes to call it, a Poony!


Oh yes. It’s a big pony and I was right on the top of it going, What are you talking about?


So today we want to talk about, a bunch of people who’ve seen this before. Some people are new, Helen I read Rob’s emails every day. Excellent, good. So we’re going to talk to you about something that we call dynamic customer journeys. It’s a concept we created a few years ago. We’re going to show you how we created it, how we use it, why we use it, why it’s good and how you can use it as well.


Very quickly. Just for those of you who haven’t seen us before, we’ll just very quickly skim over and tell you very, very quickly who we are. A hypnotist and a mind reader. I’m a hypnotist, he’s a mind reader.

We’ve done that for like maybe 20 years, traveling all over the world, performing our shows. We started applying our techniques to email marketing so we could get higher engagement and make more sales from every email without being salesy.


These are really simple techniques to deepen relationships with your email subscribers. We’re also founders of a survey platform, a software platform called And then just at the end of 2020 or the start of 2021, we were lucky enough to be named in the top 10 email marketing influencers in the world by the lovely folks at sendinblue.


We’re also the host of the popular weekly podcast, Email Marketing Show. So if you listen to podcasts or you’d like to listen to us, blathering on humorously, funny and funnily about email marketing every week on Spotify or Apple Podcasts or wherever you get your podcasts, go search for the Email Marketing Show and you’ll hear us do that, along with the world’s most annoying jingle theme tune for podcasts, and because talking email marketing once a week there, and once a week with our members is not enough, we thought we’d talk about it every single day in our free Facebook group, which is called The Email Marketing Show Community. Cause we’re good at email marketing, but not really good at naming things. So we just stuck the word community on the end of the email marketing show. See what we did there? That creative genius.


Yes. So again this at the end of the session, if there is anything you think, Ooh, I want to know how I do this or you want some more inspiration for your email marketing and growing your business online. Then definitely come and join the group. It’s totally free to do it. You can even give us your email address and get our email tips every day by email, which I know a lot of you already do. So I think that’s all, that’s the blathering, the blathering introduction, I guess.


So let’s look at how one of the things we’re all taught in marketing. One of the things we’re taught about is we should create this thing called a customer avatar. That’s where you name your customer and you go, right. My customer or my ideal customer is this person, they’re called networking Nicola. And they’re all about networking.


And we’re trying to do a deep dive on what she eats for her breakfast and what her family’s like and all this stuff. And the idea of it is to get under the skin and to understand how this ideal customer thinks, feels, what their pains are, what their objections are, what their goals are trying to achieve and why they haven’t achieved it. And that was great. That was fine.


But then this was sort of upgraded by a whole bunch of business smarty pants people into having multiple avatars. So we ended up upgrading ourselves and evolving to having maybe a few different avatars. And we’ve seen this a few times in multiple businesses where if you’re in the fitness niche, you might have, you might have Bodybuilding Brian, Weight Loss Wendy, Marathon Training Marjorie and

Recovery Roberta. So you might be targeting four different types of people or three different types of people and make sure you’ve got enough marketing collateral, really good messaging, the right landing pages, the right materials that speak to each of your avatars. And that’s lovely. It feels like a really big development rather than thinking that everyone drops into one bucket, but then that’s kind of a problem.


It’s a really good theory. And it sounds really good. And when you’re learning how to do a customer avatar, it feels really comforting. You think, God, I’m going to know everything. I’m going to know exactly what words to say, exactly what promotions to talk about, exactly what products they want and what their pain points are. Actually, the minute you try and do it, the minute you print out the worksheet and you sit down and you suddenly think, oh God, I don’t know where she lives. I don’t know what kind of dog she’s got. I’d be interested in, drop me a yes or something in the chat box, if you’ve, if you’ve experienced that before. if you’ve sat down to try and say, right, this is my customer avatar. And then it’s asked you to go into all sorts of different bits of detail. And you think, I just don’t know the answer. And what you end up doing is worse than is way worse than just having a sort of a random idea as to what they might have, is that you ended up guessing.


Well, that’s really dangerous. I’ll tell you what happens to me is I feel it whenever I’ve done it, that was, I was sat down planning, some elaborate plot of the next Enid Blyton. You know, like I was sitting like creating this fictional character who I know right, does not exist. Who I don’t know. And people tell you to get into that. You know, you should know what they have for breakfast and what their kids are doing. Really. If I’m selling, you know, what, whatever, which is not related to that, do I really need to know that? And that’s when it gets really dangerous when you just start making it up.


Now, interestingly, you might even think, well, yes, I sell to different types of people, but they’re all demographically the same. You might think everyone in my audience that, you know, they’re all, they’re all single mums. This is the example I always come up with. They’re all single mums, right? So they’re all single mums between 20 and 40. And that’s that you might think, well, they’re demographically all the same. And they did, it does feel that way, but actually they’ve all got different circumstances. And the problem is the minute you try and narrow it down too far with your customer avatar, you’re suddenly cutting off a huge potential portion of your market, which means you can’t sell to them because they’re not your avatar, which means you’re not speaking to them directly. But also, and further to that, what it means is that you can’t, we live in a world where you can’t affect, who comes into your business.


You can’t affect, who’s going to come and give you their email address. You can’t affect who’s going to come and try and want to buy from you. It’s all well and good designing this lovely plan and putting out advertising speaks to those people. But at the end of the day, if you’re a guest on a podcast and you say some lovely things, or if you go and you know, put an advert in a, in a newspaper somewhere and say some lovely things about yourself, and then somebody just finds it and thought, well, that sounds interesting.


You can’t stop them from being in your world. Which means that the minute you’re not speaking to them, because they’re not your avatar, you’re now speaking against them. So you might look at a crowd of people and think, well, they’re all single mums. They’re all between 20 and 40. They all look demographically fairly similar.


Well, actually the minute you dig into that, you realise that just can’t be true. That the things that separate us are too vast. So for example, they’re going to have different motivations, different fears, different worries. They’re going to have different problems. They might have the same age and the same life circumstances. They might not. Some of them might be wealthy. Some of them might not. Some of them might have gone back to work after having a kid. Some of them might not.


There’s so many things that separate us. Some of them might suffer from anxiety and some of them don’t. There are too many things that separate us. If what we’re trying to do is take a fairly simple business and a fairly simple solution and try and niche it down too far to too tight of an avatar, because the world’s changed since customer avatars became a thing.


We don’t live in a world anymore where you rush home from school or work, to watch your favourite TV program.


Remember Neil Buchanan? I wonder what he’s doing these days.


Anyway, we don’t live in that world anymore. I used to rush home every day from school to watch something and then I’d revise for my GCSEs and have a lovely time of it. That’s not how, that doesn’t work anymore because we live in a world of ‘on demand’, right? We live in a world of TV subscription services, where we can pick up and watch Netflix or Shudder, whatever Shudder is. Never heard of it, but it’s there. We can watch those, whatever we want to. And even the normal TV channels, like BBC iPlayer, All4, which used to be 4OD, the UK’s biggest streaming service, ITV player, which went down yesterday. Channel five, they’ve all got these on-demand services. And they’ve had to do that because people don’t want to watch telly when they used to watch telly anymore. They want to watch telly, they want to watch the TV programs they want to watch when they want to watch them. So we, we live in a much more fluid world now than we ever have. And we’ve got to take that into account.


Well, what we actually want to do is turn our marketing into one of those, choose your own adventure stories. You remember those things. It was like, turn to page 22 if you think he died and we all did, right. We all want them to die horribly or whatever, or, you know, turn to page 12 if you thought he, you know, did a different thing, went down the mine, whatever. Basically half those books, in case you’ve not seen them before, where you literally get to the turn of the page and decide what what happens. 28 possible endings. I mean, how short was the actual book? I mean, you could read this thing in about six minutes anyway.


What we want to do is we want to change our marketing and our communication, not just our marketing communication, actually all communication with the outside world with potential customers, customers, and advocates.


We want to change that so that they actually self-select their own journey. Because like Rob said, we don’t live in this world where we’ve got to pick from even 20 or 30 or a hundred channels on television, or, you know, four if you were, you know, Nicola when she was a little bit younger. But we don’t do that anymore. It’s not like we can just give them more choice. We have to allow them to dynamically switch between these things. But that sounds like a really terrifying thing. That sounds like a really great thing that big companies can do. Yeah, sure. Amazon can do all of that stuff. That’s not a problem. Cause they’ve got all that tech and all the smart people, but for us as small businesses, often micro businesses, that sounds a bit of a lofty thing to consider doing, doesn’t it?


So what we’re going to do is we’re going to show you some really interesting ways that you can get people to make those selections. And it’s really simple. You could set any one of these up in 20 minutes and then, you know, and then you’re off to the races. So does that sound pretty good? Does that sound like it would be useful and interesting. Everybody let us know in the chat and then we can get on with these dynamic customer journeys because what’s cool about all of this is what we’re about to show you just wasn’t possible only a few years ago. Like really only a few years ago, what, what you’re about to see just wasn’t really possible. And that’s why customer avatars became so prevalent. It was the sort of the best you have to take your best guess and then take a really solid stab at it. And now just technology’s moved on and we’re not even talking complicated technology. We’re talking really simple technology, but it just still wasn’t possible five years ago.


Yeah. Yeah. So have we got any social media managers here? Anyone here a social media manager? There’s always a couple sniffing around the place, telling you that you should tweet more and you should Instagram or whatever you should do. There’ll be some, yes. Okay, good. So the example I’m going to show you is not from our businesses from an actual somebody we know who’ve got a social media business and what we’re going to show you is something that the traditional way that most email marketing and most marketing in general works. And it’s what we call horizontal marketing.


So somebody gets into your world, joins your email list for one of two reasons, either they joined because of a lead magnet, you’ve got some freebie on your page, a discount code or a sexy booklet, or if you follow our strategies that we shared in the previous session you’ve got a really good way of getting people onto your email list or some people join your email list by buying some stuff. That happens every now and again, doesn’t it? People, the first time that somebody gets into your email list is because they’ve just purchased something.


And that happens too. So somehow they’re on your email list. And then generally what happens is you will send them into a series of emails. Now let’s just say there’s only three emails promoting each of these different programs we’ve got. So if have a social media marketing person and I teach social media marketing to the small businesses my first thing I might sell them is a course I’ve got about content creation.


How do you get one of these great content ideas for your social media? So I might spend three, probably more, hopefully more emails, but we’re going to keep this lean selling them that course. Cool. And then some people will buy that course and that’d be great. And most people, statistically speaking, if we’re just being honest, will not buy that programme. And that’s fine because next we’ll send them another email, another series of emails, which tell them about our social scheduling course.


So we talk about different things to do with different ways to schedule social media in different, different different types of content to put on different days and how to figure that out. We’ve got a whole course about social media scheduling. That’d be great. And some people will buy that course. And some people will not buy that course.


And then the next people, maybe we’ve got a programme which is all about how to grow your audience. We all want a bigger audience. We all want to get to 10,000 followers so we can swipe and click and do other things that people do over on Instagram. So some people will buy that course about how do you grow your, your audience. And then some people will not buy your course, but that’s okay because we’ll send them another bunch of emails, which are all about how to monetize your social media.


How do you actually turn followers who are just scrolling and having look at your bum in those nice shorts, how do you turn them into people who buy? So we’ve got all these courses and that’s great. The problem is let’s say Rob comes along and he’s really interested. He’s like, he’s all right with a social media audience. It’s canny. It’s a canny size. You know, his content creation, easy. He’s a creative guy. He is social scheduling is using AgoraPulse. It does it. You know, you’ve got lots of automation set up. He just really needs to know how to take those social media people, all those followers and fans he’s got there and how to monetize them.


The problem is it takes 3, 6, 9. It’s not until the 10th email that Rob gets to even hear that that course exists. Even though on the surface of a customer avatar, Rob is in the market to buy training about social media.


He’s had to go through and let’s be honest, no email automation selling a programme has ever as small as three emails, it should be at least six, right? So we’ve got a considerable number, but a minimum of 10 emails before he sees something that is relevant. And the huge problem with that is before that, before he even gets there, he’s going to disengage. And he’s probably going to unsubscribe because the biggest reason, people unsubscribe from emails as I’ll talk about again later is because the content is not relevant.


If you’re going to spend three, six emails telling me stuff about stuff I don’t care about, about how do I create content? Well, every day I’m getting that email and Rob’s receiving that email. He’s going, I know how to do this. I know how to do this. It’s not going to take long before he starts disengaging and then maybe unsubscribing.


So he will never ever get to find out that you have a programme which actually solves his problem. And let’s be honest. All we do in marketing and with our businesses is we just solve people’s problems. That’s all we do every single day. No matter what we’re doing, the problem might be I need a gift for my wife. The problem might be, I don’t understand how to do this thing if we’re all only, only ever solving problems.


So how do we actually take this very standard, this is the way almost everybody’s email marketing works. How do we take horizontal email marketing and do what we call vertical email marketing?


One way that some people try and fix this is that they create a different sequence of emails for every sort of lead magnet that gets somebody to opt in. So if somebody comes along and they put their name and email address in for a lead magnet that is about monetizing their social media, then that’ll put them straight into the sequence that sells them that. Or if somebody comes along and they put their name and email address in for a lead magnet, it’s about growing your social audience. They’ll put them straight into a sequence about that. And it sounds logical, but it actually doesn’t work. And it doesn’t work because it’s making too many assumptions, which again is what customer avatars do. It’s making too many assumptions about them. The person put their name and email address in for that lead magnet about monetizing their social media.


That means their biggest problem right now is monetizing social media. And actually very rarely is that the case, because we, as humans are easily distracted by shiny things that will solve a problem. That isn’t a problem to us now, but will be later. So for example, somebody who has just created their business Instagram account and has zero followers and zero content strategy or any of the other stuff they need to do before they try and monetize their social media will land on your page, see an offer that says, download our 10 step checklist to monetize social media. They’ll put their name and email address in for it because one day they’re going to need it. And that’s a useful resource to have while it’s there in front of them. And it’s free, even if it’s paid actually, truthfully they’ll grab it. And actually, because as humans, we’re constantly trying to put off the discomfort and pain that we’re experiencing now.


And if we try and solve a problem, that isn’t a problem yet, it’s going to be a problem one day that’s much more psychologically and emotionally easier for us than having to engage with the thing that’s a problem now. The thing that was a problem now for that business owner is actually the fact that they need to get their first social media content, or they need to get their first followers. They need to have a strategy in place for managing all of that. That’s a pain right now because actually doing it is difficult. Thinking about solving a thing that might be a problem in the future. That’s much easier for us and it makes us feel, it strokes our ego and makes us feel like we’re making massive progress because we’re solving this big technical complicated thing that’s going to happen down the line. Does that make sense?


Just a real problem we have as humans. So we can’t make the assumption that just because somebody put their name and email address in for something, or somebody has bought a thing that, that is that, for the only thing we should talk about is the thing they’re interested in. And again, up until fairly recently, that’s just how online marketing worked. Somebody’s opted in for something, we’ve made assumptions about them. And we’ve tried to tackle that. And that’s one of the things that’s caused this big rise in people receiving too many irrelevant emails that don’t speak to their problem and stuff.


So here’s how we fixed it in our business. Obviously this example is from a social media management thing, but here’s how we fixed it. When somebody comes along and opts in or they buy something from us, they come into our world. We know that we need to find out more about them specifically and where they’re at. So we knew what to sell them, how to sell it to them, what to say, how to say it.


And so what we did was we run a really simple survey. Just a one question, one thing, survey that just said, great. Tell us this one piece of information about you. It’s something we call a key question. It’s going to vary depending on what you’re doing, but it’s basically to find out what’s the biggest thing that they need help with right now. So what’s your biggest challenge right now. What’s your biggest hurdle right now? What’s your biggest goal right now? Where are you at in your journey? It’s just one key, one or two key, pick key pieces of information that we want the answer to. So let’s imagine we ask somebody, which of these is your biggest problem right now, is it growing your social media audience?


Is it scheduling content? Is it which of those four things is it? And then basically based on that answer to the survey, we just fire that information back over to our email marketing platform and the people who said content creation, they go straight into the sequence about content creation, the people who said social media, scheduling, they go straight into that. The people who said growing your audience, they go straight into that. And the people who said monetizing their social media, they go straight into that one.


And so what that now means is that just by asking one question, we’ve shown an interest, we’ve built more engagement. We’ve shown that we actually care about helping them more than anyone else who’s never bothered to ask. And we know that we’re selling them the immediate thing that they want to be sold, and we can do it from the perspective that we’ll most likely sell it to them.


We’ll talk more about that in a minute. So basically what that means is we now cut that process down that Kennedy described before from being 10 emails, they have to see before they see anything relevant, the relevant thing to them down to one email, they’ve just put their name and email address in. We’ve asked them for one little bit of information in the process above and beyond their name and email address. And now the first email they receive is instantly when they go into our email marketing engine is instantly about the thing that’s most relevant to them and it’s going to help them right now. (00:21:14):

It’s not, I guess, about what they might want. And it’s not a standard system that everybody goes through. We’re taking the one very specific thing that we know they want right now cause they’ve just told us, and we’re serving up to them on a plate, and then we can put the other stuff behind it to show they might want that stuff as well. We want to try and turn them into a repeat customer, but just to get that first sale is the hardest bit to do, or to turn that customer into a repeat customer for the first time, this is what we want to put in place to make that happen. So the whole thing solved in one email.


And because there wasn’t a survey platform that actually could do this and actually make it simple because you try and do this on the standard survey platforms, it is a flipping nightmare. You need like a PhD in data sciences, something. We actually did what entrepreneurial people do, which was we started a business out of doing this. And that’s why we, we founded this survey platform called Responsesuite and literally we took £250,000 of our own money to get it built and off the ground. And the reason we did that is because this is such a valuable problem to fix. It’s valuable, not just to us as a business. And obviously it’s highly valuable to us as a business because it means we get to solve people’s problems faster. We mean that we can turn subscribers, free subscribers who have paid to get on our list into customers faster, but also it means everybody who’s on our list begins to receive much more relevant stuff.


So they like us more. They stick around more. So our average earnings per subscriber on our list is 13 times the global average goal. So your earnings per subscriber on your email list is supposed to, you’re supposed to try and push and get $1. If you’re selling in dollars for example, $1, I’ll say one pound per subscriber per month from your email list. So if you’ve got a hundred subscribers, you should be earning a hundred quid per month from your email list. From our email list, we earn $13 per subscriber per month, which is obviously 13 times more than the, the, the goal you’re supposed to go for.


The reason for that is because of the depth of the relationship we have with our subscribers. And the only reason you can have depth of relationship is if you talking about relative stuff, you don’t want to go. if you’ve ever been on a date with somebody, who you just didn’t get on with cause you’ve got nothing in common. That’s what most people are doing with their email subscribers. They’re having dates every single day or every single week with these people when they’ve got nothing in common or you’re proving to them that you’ve got absolutely nothing in common.


I, we said before, the number one reason why people unsubscribe from email is quoted as being too many emails. I get too many emails, but the actual answer is that they get too many irrelevant emails. If you’re actually receiving emails every single day that solve your problems or about the stuff that you really care about, then you can’t get too many of them.


Think about how many people here, just give us a little wave, you don’t need to type anything. How many here, how many people here have ever looked at moving house, whether that’s to rent a house or to buy a house, right?


How many people have ever done that? Right? So when you doing that, right? What happens is you get on all these lists of all these, you know, Jan Forster and flipping Signature and all these different people’s email address, email lists. And they send you all these houses every day that you can buy or rent. You’re probably getting 10. I mean, we were getting 10 to 20 emails a day from people showing us different houses we could look at. I never thought, oh, I’m getting too many emails, but of course, because it was highly relevant. But at the moment that you buy the house or the moment you find the place you want to rent, then you just want all of those people to p*ss right off immediately! Cause they’re still sending you emails, right?


So think about the relevance journey. When it’s really hyper relevant, send me 20 emails a day, as soon as it’s not relevant anymore, when I’ve moved in, I no longer care about your stinking, horrible place in Wallsend. then don’t send me emails anymore. So it’s all about that. Relevance. How relevant can you be and asking one single simple question, like what’s your biggest challenge right now with whatever it is you do and giving them the four possibilities or the three possibilities or the five possibilities of the things that you can help them with. And they get to self-select.


Now you’re proving you care, you listen, you respond to that thing. Obviously don’t ask them the question and do nothing with it because there’s nothing worse than like, you know, it’s a bit like when your partner says to you, Hey, what do you want for tea? And you go, oh, I’d really like, you know, fajitas. And they go great fish and chips. Like, why would you do that? Right? You want to make sure when you ask a question, you get the answer, you listen to the answer. And that’s the reason we had to develop the software tool actually, because we were asking questions and surveys because we knew they were really valuable. But then there was no direct integration between surveys and email marketing platforms. So we were going, oh, thanks for your opinion and whatever we wanted, which sucked. So that’s it.


So yeah. I mean, we’ll show you the extremity of that in a second. Yes.


Yes. We’ll show the extremity of that. So Rob, so in our business, we teach email marketing, right? And you might think that’s fairly simple. We teach email marketing to small businesses who know they have to do email marketing. Don’t really want to, but they just know it’s good. And they want to fall in love with email marketing. And then that happens once they get into it and see the results and stuff. So in our business, you might think that’s fairly simple. You know, I think that’s all right.


But within that, we’ve got people who come into our world, you’ve got a big email list and we’ve got people, who’ve got no email lists, they’ve got zero subscribers or like 10 subscribers. So do you think we can speak to people who’ve got a massive email list and a small email list in the same breath? No. And if we were to customer avatar the heck out of it, and we were going to say, well, we only want to speak to people who’ve got a big email list or we only want to speak to people who’ve got no email list. Think about all the people we’re now cutting out of our business in either direction.


So we’ve got people who sell courses. We’ve got people that sell membership programmes. You’ve got people who sell coaching. We’ve got people who sell homemade products. We’ve got people who have e-comm businesses. We’ve got people who’ve got local high street businesses. We’ve got people who do, you know, services of some description like photographers and that kind of thing. We’ve got business owners in all kinds of different niches. So again, we can’t talk to people who sell online courses in the same way that we talk to somebody who’s a photographer because they have to use their stuff in different ways. And if we talk about sell more of your courses, sell more courses, sell more of your courses, because the photographers are not going to be interested.


But at the same time, if we just pick one, with our customer avatar and say, right, we only help photographers think about all of the course creators, the thousands of course creators who’ve bought our stuff who wouldn’t have bought it. And we’ve just lost that revenue instantly. I know you can talk, you can argue that if you niche down, you’ll find more customers. It just doesn’t work that way anymore.


We’ve got people who are really talented writers. You know, they’re like grade A at school and

University writers. And then we’ve got people who find writing really difficult, like Kennedy’s dyslexic. And that’s why he got into doing email marketing in the first place. We can’t talk to people about, don’t worry if you’re not a very good writer, we’ll hold you by the hand. We’ll guide you through it and overcome those objections because that’s going to alienate the people who are really good writers.


And if we talk to people about, you know, and just, you know, write a bit of Shakespeare in each of your emails, then you’ll be fine. That’s going to put off the people who are finding writing a bit more difficult. We’ve got people who are really technical, like people who actually do marketing automations, much cleverer stuff than we do. Like really clever marketing automation stuff in HubSpot and active campaign, all these programmes. And then we’ve got people who are terrified of the technology and want to run away as far from it as possible. Can’t speak to those people the same way. We’ve got people who are single solo preneurs working from home in their spare bedroom, just them. They haven’t got anyone working for them. That’s just them. And then we’ve got people, who’ve got a little team of outsource workers, a VA, and somebody who does the tech stuff and somebody who does this.


Yeah. And we can’t talk to them in the same way. We’ve got personal brands, you know, whether the brand of themselves like Rob and Kennedy, that’s our sort of personal brand. We’ve got people who are, don’t know what you call it. So we just call it brand brands, you know, like you know, McDonald’s is a brand brand. And then we’ve got people who are sprinters and people who are plotters. We’ve got the people who get some new training and it’s done by the end of the afternoon. And we’ve got some people who just like to plod along slowly and just sort of get stuff done and take off at their own speed. And both of those people are very welcome to buy from us. Who are we to talk to them about how they should or shouldn’t implement our stuff right now? You might think, well, that’s, that’s a lot of problems.


You know, you can’t talk to big list and no list the same way. You can’t talk the technical and less technical the same way. But here’s where it gets mental. We’ve got people who have a big email are really good writers and aren’t very technical and we’ve got people, who’ve got a big email list. They’re really good writers. And they are very technical. And suddenly you realise that all of those things, and that’s, that’s a small list compared to what the truth of it is.


We’ve got people who live in different countries. We’ve got people of different generations, different ages. We we’ve got this massive matrix of people. Some people have a big list. They’re really good at writing. And they’re a personal brand. They like to sprint stuff. And some people have no email list to sell courses. Do you see what I’m saying?


We ended up with this weird matrix of data where nobody is a straightforward thing. Every, or everyone’s like a complicated cocktail of all of these different ingredients, everyone. Yeah, exactly. Everyone is completely completely unique. And so that means that the customer avatar is now diluted, because what you’re saying is I’m only going to sell to people and I’ll make up an example who have a big email list. And you can define what that means. But big email lists who sell memberships, who are not very good at writing, they’re not very technical. They work at home and don’t have a team they’re a

personal brand. And they like to just take things slowly. So I’ve taken one ingredient from each of those bullet points. That’s a really small pool of people, which means I’m now making my job more difficult. I now have to make up a lot of stuff.


I don’t know about them like what dog they’ve got and what newspaper they read in the morning and what cereal they have, which won’t aid my ability to sell to them anyway, because it’s not relevant particularly. And so instead, what I actually want to do is to say, well, how do we serve all of those people? How can we take all of those people? Because there’ll be people in here, who’ve got a big email list. There’ll be people on here, you’ve got no email list at all. And we want to be able to serve all of you. We want to be able to take all of your money. It’s the truth.


Like if we’re really, like, our job as businesses is to take money from you, by giving you values. As our Kennedy used to say. And so what we want to do is to make sure we give you as much value as possible. And then we can grow a business bigger, help more people, and serve our actual mission, which is to build a lovely business and have a nice life and to improve and genuinely to improve the state of email marketing the world over, in all businesses. And we can only do that if we can help all of these people with the complicated cocktail of ingredients.


And that makes me want to go on a little bit of a rant, which is about niching. Like we’ve got friends who specialise in niching, right? And these things are really important, right? This is a total aside. It’s not in the slides, not in the notes, but the thing is, there’s a point at which niching you need to make sure there is niche viability.


You need to make sure the niche that you’re going to target is actually big enough because people say, you know, the more you niche, the better. To a point, but there is a point at which it becomes such a finite number of people that you no longer have a viable business. And that’s the reason that companies like Amazon, Facebook and Google, they all collect so many data points on all of us. Like, like I saw a

thing about like, by the time, if a kid goes on, creates a new Facebook account, by the time they’re like 14 or 15 years old, Facebook has like 10,000 pieces of data about that person, like within like a year or two of being on a platform.


And the reason that this is so important to these platforms, right, is because these, these platforms are the best at targeting ads in the world. These three platforms own the advertising space and they can’t do it by going right, people who use Facebook tend to be 45 to 55 year old female. So all the ads are going to be about stuff that 45 to 55, they can’t do it. They absolutely can’t do it. They need to figure out this absolute matrix of bits of data so they can serve you the most relevant ads. So you get a better experience on the platform because you’re hearing about stuff you enjoy seeing or like me the other day, where I got targeted with the, to like the page Coronation Street Fans UK, again, I don’t know who the hell they think I am. But that was, that was bad targeting. Cause they obviously drop the ball every now and again, but they have all of these data points unless I’m a closet Corrie fan, maybe. I don’t know.

But yeah. So, so it’s really important that we have all these pieces of data. So let’s take a look at that. Rob, I’ll let you explain what this chart means.


Yeah. Just quickly. Nicola’s made a great comment, which is what I hear is your niche is teaching people email marketing, the people aren’t the niche, the offer is the niche. And this is a thing that we struggled with this for quite a long time about the fact that we can help anybody. If you, if you sell stuff and your customers are grownups with email addresses, like we can help them sell more of it with email. That’s the truth. And so for us, everyone was saying, you’ve got to niche down to who do you serve? Who do you serve? Who do you serve? Who does not want to? Because we like talking to all these different people.


So here’s the thing, right? This is, this is, this is the problem. We ran a survey to our list years ago and asked this question. What’s the biggest challenge you face in email marketing. Now look at that pie chart. How do we speak to those people all the same? We just can’t do it. And you never, ever, ever, ever, ever send a survey out to people and look at a pie chart or a donut chart or whatever. I’m hungry now, look at a chart of some description and see that 92% of people want one thing. And the other 8% of people want the other thing. And then the others said, nobody’s said that, right. That just never happens. You always end up with some weird split.


Normally if you ask, if you send out a survey and you give them three options, you’ll end up with a Mercedes-Benz you’ll end up with almost a third, a third and a third. And so what happens is you can, the best thing you can do is you can look at a pie chart like that and you can go well, which of those is the biggest segment? It’s probably the purple one, I would guess. So let’s send to everyone the thing about the purple one and the problem with that is that means that actually, whilst that’s the largest individual segment, about two thirds of the list, didn’t say that, and therefore they’re going to get p*ssed off because you’re talking about stuff that’s not relevant to them.


Worse than not talking about the stuff that’s not relevant to them. You’ve just asked them what’s relevant to them and you’re not talking about it as well.


And this is a thing, to take a stupid example. But it’s just, when we, the understand, if we’re a fitness professional, told you it was a stupid example. If we were fitness professionals and we had all these people in our audience and we send them a list saying, are you interested in bodybuilding, weight loss or training for like a marathon or something? And they come back and it’s almost a third, a third and a third, which is what typically happens. But there’s just a small leaning towards bodybuilding. We’re now going to send out our bodybuilding promotions to everybody. Cause that was the most popular option. Right. But then most of the, list are now annoyed, cause we talked about the thing that is so irrelevant to them it’s untrue. And that’s a really big problem.


That’s my cue. Sorry. I was reading the comments in the little thing. Nicola was having a bit of craic there. I was like, oh, that’s interesting. Anyway. So how do we, how do we actually do this? The way we do this is by asking questions, right? That’s really what all of this made us realise that there’s loads of stuff we don’t know about our subscribers, about our customers and other people in our world. And the best way to figure those things out is just to be bloody nosy is just to ask. It’s not clever. It’s not real mind reading. It’s literally asking people. So what we do is we insert question asking devices throughout our business. So I’m going to give you just rattle through some places in businesses where you can insert a question asking device and we’ll talk about some questions asking devices in a moment as well.


So one of them might be after someone joins your email list. So it could be on the thank you page. As soon as they’ve opted in, they’ve joined your email list for your free thing or to get your newsletter or whatever. Those people just have a nice little message that says, thanks a lot. You’ll hear from us every week and look at me. I’m great and that’s fine, but that’s, that’s that’s some real estate. That’s some space that you can use and having a survey on that page. And Hey, I’ve got a one question survey for you. It’s not gonna hurt a bit and helps is understand a little bit more about you. Would you click the answer? This question is a great place to collect one more piece of data, right? The next is, you know, actual welcome email sequences.


We have a welcome sequence we teach called the getting to know you sequence, which is a psychologically stacked four day email sequence for every new person who joins our email list. And in, is it email two or email three? I can never remember which one it is because you wrote it once and don’t look at it again. Three, right? We, we have we have a question in that, Hey, you know, welcome to our world. This is what we do. We’d love to find out more about you so we can send you the most relevant content. No lies, no shenanigans, literally so we can send you to the most relevant content so we can solve the problems that you’ve got as quickly as possible, because we know you want to solve your problem right now. And we want to get you to that solution.


And hopefully to, through something that we can, we can sell when somebody buys a product, you know, they’ve purchased something, what’s on the next page. Hey, tell me a little bit more about your preferences. Tell me a bit more about what you do. It could be in the email that follows up. Hey, which of these three things is the most interesting to you? Find out at the moment that someone has just purchased because when someone’s buying, they are psychologically speaking in the most active state in their mind. So that’s the next one.


Next is before a live webinar training, we’ve got a new web class where I’m going to be teaching about increasing the ROI for your email marketing, like three different methods. And when people register for that, what happens is that we ask them as soon as they registered for the webinar, which is like maybe in a few days, time, we say in the meantime, just tell us the answer to these two or three or four questions?


So we can make sure that we tailor the content of that thing to what you, what you want to hear about. And also we’ll, we’ll help, we’ll help them understand how that stuff that we’re going to talk about fits their world, fits their business and make it much more relevant. So before a live webinars training is another one, like some kind of zoom training or something like that. So like this kind of thing, for example, it’d be good to do on when people register for this. And then before they show up you can actually use question asking devices, or you can make a quiz to actually, as the list building method.


So you could put like a little what’s your biggest opportunity with your email marketing quiz together kind of thing we could do. And they go through when you tell them, oh, this is your biggest opportunity by answering some questions, you tell them, Hey, actually it looks like what you need to focus on is not list-building which you might, everyone thinks they have to have a bigger list, but your biggest opportunity is actually working out how to make more sales to your existing people.


Oh, that’s great. And here’s a program help you do that. What’s your biggest opportunity in your recruitment? What’s your biggest opportunity in your financial portfolio? What’s your biggest opportunity in growing your business right now through, through an extended network? So using an actual quiz is a really powerful way of doing that, because guess what? It appeals to people’s favourite thing, which is their own self-interest.


I remember a few years ago there was all those, like which Disney princess are you quizzes? You know, Rob’s Cinderella, I think. But I think I might Pocahontas. I’m not sure. But these quizzes are really good because we lean into them and we go into an active state rather than it passively going that’s my email address. That’s my name. Oh, there’s the ebook, how nice. We have to start thinking. And then we feel like we’re going to get something back out of them, which as a result, here’s your biggest opportunity. Here’s what you could be doing. Here’s your biggest weakness.


If you do I.T security, you know, it could be a spot, the biggest weakness in your, in your I.T security quiz right now. And then you can make an offer off the back of that. So you’re looking for opportunities to help people and help them self-diagnose through a series of questions.


The next is to actually use an application form. So we have, we recently started an email writing agency where we actually write emails for you. Before people get on a call with us, we put them through an application form to make sure they’re a good fit because we don’t want to get on the call. How many of us are sick and tired of getting on calls with people who absolutely are in the wrong place, don’t have the budget. They’re just kind of tyre kickers and a waste of time.


We’ve all done that as businesses. We don’t want to do that. So this question asking device where in this application form, we ask people, what’s your budget? Have you got a product already? Cause if people haven’t got the right budget and haven’t already got something to sell, well, no matter what we say on that call, we can’t help them. So we may as well not let anybody feel bad at the end of that call because there’s nothing worse when you’ve got like a tenner in your pocket, you get onto something and somebody tells you it’s 10 grand. You feel terrible. You know, your mental health is suffering from that, from an inferiority complex. You don’t want that. That’s not helping us serving anybody. So again, we don’t waste their time.


So again, that’s an application form. And when someone joins or cancels membership, so sometimes occasionally people do leave our membership, our email marketing membership for small businesses called the League, on their way out we just ask them a couple of questions. One of them is what was the reason you left? And if people say I don’t have the time or our number one reason that people leave is because they don’t, they say they don’t have the time to dedicate to it at the moment. So what can we do then, guess what we can swap around and say, look, if you really want the outcome of email marketing and you haven’t got the time, maybe we could take off your hands and help you. So it’s about how do you, again, use that information to offer more help, not just sell stuff at people. And of course, one of our favourite things is to use the fact that surveys get people to this active state, as a lead into some kind of promotion. So we might say, Hey, you know, what’s your biggest challenge right now with this thing.


And of course the product we’re going to promote later solves those very things. So it’s a really good way of getting people to lean in and evokes, there’s a psychological principle called commitment and consistency that when people say something out loud, they feel like they have to follow through with it. Cause we don’t like to be inconsistent with ourselves. And of course it’s really, really useful to ask people questions, to actually get just engagement from people, to get them to go from reading and scrolling passively into this active state.


Because when people are in an active state, they’re more likely to start thinking about solutions to problems and people buy the solutions and run away from pain. Don’t they? So that’s just a bunch of different ways. You can use some question asking devices, whether they be quizzes and surveys and questions and things like that. I mean, that’s just some, there’s a load more we could use, but hopefully it builds a picture about how easy this is, how important it is to insert these into your business.


It’s a really streamlined process. It doesn’t feel clunky or in the way or any of these things. It’s just that. Oh, great. So you just registered for our webinar. Great. Can you just answer these quick three questions? They’re all multiple choice that tells us a bit more about you to help us steer the webinar and all of the future stuff to be towards what you’re actually looking for right now. And so what happens is over time, you start to build a really solid picture of who somebody is and it’s all linked to their record and your email marketing platform and your CRM.


So for example, there’s people on this training, who’ve seen us do a training before and at the end of it, you’ve come along. You’ve joined our world. You’ve come into our Facebook group. You’ve put your name and email address in you’ve answered a couple of questions on the way in, like, how did you hear about us?


Guess what? That information gets passed into our email marketing platform. Then as soon as you go through our email getting to know you sequence, there’s the one, the one in email number three, you click on a link and that you answer another question. Guess what? We’ve now got two bits of data about you. And then a bit later on you go through something else. Maybe you don’t buy our membership programme. We’ll send you a little survey to find out why you didn’t buy it. You’ll answer a question then and guess what? We just found out something else about you. And so very, very quickly over a period of time within three or four weeks, you’ve probably gone through four of these questions asking devices, and we’re building a picture of who you are, but we’re not doing it in a big brother is watching you, Mark Zuckerberg kind of way where allegedly, where you pop to a cafe at the same time at nine o’clock every Tuesday.


Well, we now know you’re in that cafe at nine o’clock every Tuesday, because we’ve tracked a GPS on your phones, how Facebook’s doing it all, where there’s not no secrets there. All we’re doing is we’re asking you to tell us a bit more about you and we’re doing it at regular intervals. And we build this picture of you all the time. What that means is that if we want to do a promotion and we want to do a

promotion that is only relevant to people who haven’t got an email list yet, and aren’t very technical, we can pull up a list of all the people who said they haven’t got an email list yet and they’re not very technical, we’ll only send it to them. And we can only do that. We haven’t sent you some big, long interrogation at any point. All we’ve done is we’ve just collected lots of bits of data over a period of time, because we want to make this really quick.


When I say really quick, I mean, quick to build. So like less than 20 minutes to throw a quick survey together, for example, this webinar we’re doing in a couple of weeks time, we’re just doing a little project plan for it the other day on a, on a call. And I said to Kennedy great, I’ll hook up the thing in our email marketing platform. And if you can go and make a survey, and then that will be that half an hour later surveys done it looks great. And it’s got four questions in it, 20 minutes, half an hour to do, done.

We also want to make it quick to fill out. You want this to take less than a minute or two for your subscribers. So again, we would typically not have more than like four questions.


If you have more than five, the completion rate falls off a cliff. So we would typically for a quick survey or when you have three, four questions and it’s sometimes one question and it’s going to be things that are going to help us to, to figure out what we can sell and how we can sell it and how to talk to those people best. We’ll talk about how you use this data in a second, cause that’s really important. And then you just want to automate, so it sits in your business running 24/7, while you do other things like this webinar in a couple of weeks, once we’ve done it and we’ve nailed it and it’s new. So it’ll take a few goes, but once we’ve got it right, we’re going to take that webinar and we’re going to make it evergreen. We’re going to have it automated running in our business.


So everyone’s going to come through, they’re going to register for the webinar. They’re going to take the survey. They’re going to watch or not watch the webinar. And then we’re going to follow up with them appropriately, but we’ll be able to use the information they gave us in a really solid way. So that’s really important. And this allows you to take the people on their journey, through your business. It’s something that we call mass personalisation, this big, complicated sounding thing that it sounds like Amazon and Facebook and Google can do, but we can do it as micro businesses. We can just ask for bits of information and then use that information in a whole bunch of different ways. So as we sort of approach the end of this, let’s rattle through and show you a bunch of different ways that you can take the data and the information you’re collecting about people that are segmented in your email list. Based on what they’ve told you, let’s talk about how you can actually use that information to improve your business and improve your communication with each of them.


Totally. So the whole idea of this is that you want to offer them the right thing, and by the right thing, what we mean is not necessarily what you know they need from your expertise, but we all buy based on what we want. So offer them what they want, basically offer them what you can do. So that’s the first thing. So you want to offer them the right thing. So it could be, you’ve got four different programmes, offer them the right programme.


So I know I know Alison teaches performing arts type stuff. If they need, if they want like singing type stuff and develop that skill, that’s gonna be one programme versus I want to learn monologues and how to do that. Versus I want to be able to do something completely different and movement or whatever it’s going to be, right? So that’s one thing you can do with this. The second thing you can do is offer them, if you only sell one thing. So our main thing we sell is our membership. But what you can do is use this technique to offer that one thing, but from a different angle.


So you might actually, we’ll continue with Alison, as an example, you might have one performing arts class, but depending on what the person’s preferences are, you might focus more or highlight more of the, the, the vocal tutorials and the vocal tuition for the people who said, they’re more interested in a vocal technique. Whereas somebody who’s said, oh, actually, I’m really, I really want to become an actor. You might talk more in the marketing about the about the acting classes and that kind of thing, but they’re all driving towards the same course. So even if you’ve only got one, one product or one programme, you can still do this, but offering them the dialled in messaging that really appeals to that person. So either with multiple products or with the same one product.


The next one is that you can show them the most relevant proof and the most relevant stories and case studies. Because what we’re trying to do here is when somebody comes into your world, they’re the most excited about it. They’re going to be, especially once they’ve been through your welcome, getting to know you sequence, right? And so what happens now is every time you send them an email that doesn’t quite resonate with them, it makes them think, oh, actually, I’m not sure if this person can help me. I’m not sure if this person is going to be able to help me. I’m not sure if this is the best fit and every time that happens, you just chip away at that boulder a little bit until eventually you’ve got nothing but dust left. And so we want to make sure that every email hits them right square between the eyes and makes them go, wow, this is still relevant to me.


So for example, if we’re promoting our membership, the League, if we email someone who’s really technical, a really good writer and has a big list, we can’t talk to them the same way. As somebody who struggles to log into their email marketing platform, has a hundred subscribers and is terrified of writing. Somebody who’s really technical is going to be turned off by the people who say, we’ll hold you by the hand and we’ll show you every single thing to click and somebody who isn’t tech needs to hear that. And so we want to make sure that we can talk about, for example, case studies of people who are just like them. So we’ll send an email with two case studies in it or three case studies. And that’s when you copy and paste in a testimonial from your sales page into an email and doing three instead of one, and we’ll just hide those bits of content.


All email marketing platforms can do that. We’ll just hide those bits of content from other people it’s not relevant to. So our technical segment will see the one from somebody who’s very technical. So we have a case study from a lady called Kay, who’s an Active Campaign expert genius with Active Campaign. And her testimonial says the words as somebody who’s completely, she doesn’t say this, but it’s something like as somebody who’s a genius with the tech, I just needed help. Knowing what emails to send, we can send that testimonial to somebody who’s openly raised their hand and said, I just I’m terrified at the technology because they’re going to go, oh, well, that’s all great for Kay because she was good at the technology. I need to master that bit. And then I’ll come and learn the emails. Whereas we’ve got another one who says I’m terrified of tech, but all the campaigns are really easy to implement.


Great. That that’s going to go to the people who said, they’re not, they’re not good at tech. And then that way we’re able to make sure that people read every case study and say, oh well, that’s right for me. And it’s simple things. If you’ve got, if you’re selling to a whole bunch of men, you’re actually better to stick a bunch of testimonials from men of a similar age and all that stuff. If you’re selling to women, you’re better to put testimonials from women of a similar age, that kind of thing. So again, this stuff really makes a difference to make every one of your email communications make more sense to somebody, but without taking ages. Just copy three testimonials instead of one, and then just do this. And it’s really straightforward.


The next one, as I mentioned before, is to qualify and disqualify people, basically, you don’t want to waste people’s time or your own time. I actually ended up speaking to people on calls and zoom who needs more zoom, right? Who actually don’t have the budget or the interest or the ability to say yes to what it is that you sell. Like I said, our email writing agency, our fee started about eight and a half thousand dollars. So if somebody doesn’t have $8,500 to spend on this thing, we don’t want them to feel bad at the end of the call, when we tell them the price and they like, you know, faint and fall over, we want to make sure that they’re in the right stage of business with the right kind of offer. And they’re able to say yes, when we get to that point.


So our conversion is higher, but also we don’t end up like breaking the relationship with that person, if they’re in the wrong stage, we’ll offer the membership or something different. We also want to make sure that we can time our offers correctly. One of the bunches of people I, I train and teach is entertainers, not in the same way that Alison does, but I teach people who like are magicians, mind readers, people who perform like at events rather than in shows. And one of the campaigns that came up with them, for them was during COVID send out a survey to your market and say, I’m doing a bit of market research to find out when people are going to be starting to book events again. So what do you fill in this three question market research survey. And in that survey, we asked them how big your first event’s going to be when you come back? When are you going to start looking at booking events? And when are you going to have your next event?


Well, guess what happens now? As the entertainer, I know exactly when to reach out to those people, because they’ve just told me when they’re going to start booking events again. So now I can reach out, reach back out to Rita, who’s just told me that she’s, that she’s going to, she’s gonna be booking her event in October. That’s exactly what we’re going to do. So you can, the biggest problem in marketing, one of the biggest problems is the getting the timing right. And you can solve that with this.


You can also use surveys to resell previous customers. Sometimes people leave our membership, but they leave for different reasons. And obviously we work really hard to resell them back into the membership about 90 days later when their circumstances might have actually changed. So if someone’s reason for leaving us was, I don’t know, I thought it was sh*t. We’ve never had it yet, but if it was right, we need to make sure that we approach that very differently to someone who was like, I’m having financial trouble right now. And I just need to take a pause because, you know, we’re all in business, like that happens. We’ve had that happen. It happens, right? So we want to deal with those people differently. And the way we resell customers and maybe upsell or future sell customers can be different based on their response to what it is they already bought.


That’s what I used to reinvigorate sleeping subscribers. One of the things we talk about a lot is we, we have this LOL revival campaign that we run. It’s a 14 day promotion. When somebody gets to a point where we’ve considered them to be disengaged, they’re not clicking on our links for an extended period of time. For us, that’s 60 days right now. And then we’ll put them into this re-engagement campaign. One of the emails in that campaign is, well, two of the emails in this, two of the, you know, two in that campaign are, do you want to go and take this quick survey and tell us a bit about you and what, how we can help you best? And that allows us to collect data, to make sure those people don’t go sleepy again. Somebody joined your list today and say, a year later, they’re sort of disengaged and stop paying attention.


And then you send them some stuff and it gets them to re-engage and then you continue treating them the way that you did in the first place, because what’s going to happen? They’re going to go to sleep again. So we just ask that question, find out, okay, what, what was it that wasn’t quite working for you? Okay, great. Now we know a bit more about you. We can now talk to you in a way that’s going to be more interesting.


And the whole thing here is to keep this really, really simple. You don’t need a million email sequences. You don’t need much complicated, any complicated tech. You’ve just got to write an email once and then change the testimony or you’re going to change that sentence, to make it relevant to them. Where are you going to put them into that sequence?


Instead of that sequence, this is such a simple thing to do again, to come back to this example, you’d have those email sequences, sequences written anyway. You can’t avoid that. If you’ve got those services, you’ve got to have email sequences that sell each of those services or products or whatever. The only thing we’re doing is instead of having them go one after the other, we’re having them run simultaneously, but to different people. So we’re not asking you to write a million more emails. We’re just asking you to put the same emails in a slightly different position. And this gives us what we call the end, the death of blanket marketing. If you’re currently just promoting whatever you fancy or whatever you think is important to everybody in your audience, then you’re just doing what we call hope marketing. You just sort of throwing something out there and hoping that some people see it and it resonates.


And in every case, a hundred percent of the time, it won’t resonate with more people than it will. And what that means is that whilst you might make some sales, that’s coming at the cost of annoying everybody else. And so by taking this data-driven approach to dynamic customer journeys and allowing people to raise their hand and choose their adventure and choose their journey through your business, you’re able to make sure that everybody gets a really personalised experience and as Experian, the credit reference agency said via the email marketing platform campaign monitor’s blog, personalised emails deliver six times higher transaction rates. And that stats old now so it’s, it will definitely be higher than that these days.


Based on what people tell you. So obviously not this big brother scary spying stuff, each subscriber literally gets to escape the irrelevant stuff that they don’t need to see. They get to jump straight to the most interesting, most of the most effective things that they need to solve their problems. That is basically what a dynamic customer journey is. It basically means that every subscriber sees the most relevant content that speaks to them as a person. It solves their problems and their pains. It highlights that motivations and their goals. It shows other people around them having success who are just like them. So they get to feel like it’s going to work for them as well. And it basically all of this together means they’re much more likely to buy and tell other people. So whenever you send an email, we want you to ask the question, is this email perfect for a hundred percent of my subscribers?


Or could it alienate them if the answer is no, or even a little bit worried about you might be hitting send, and it might actually turn some people off and it might not be the right content. So you could just swap it out. for some content that is a bit more broad or for some other content that is more relevant to that particular person or exclude the people who it’s not perfect for. Because at the end of the day, it is really hard to get a second crack at that first impression, as soon as someone makes that decision that you are, that you’re irrelevant, but you basically don’t work with people like them. It’s really hard to undo that. Really, really, really hard to want to do that because they will start searching for the person who does.


So hopefully that gives you lots of ideas about how you can use these dynamic customer journeys. It sounds like a big grand idea. It’s actually very simple. As you can see, it’s literally asking questions and doing stuff with the answers. We’ve got some time to take some questions if you want. If you’ve got any, anyone you’ve got any questions about this.


Me first cause this training was for me, right?! As I said, yeah, this was all about me, everybody. Right? So I’ve just got my head around it and I’ve put two comments in and the first one contradicts the second one, basically what you’re saying is if I ask these lovely members right now, for example, what their biggest challenge is right now, okay. Then my campaign and my sequence is based on the answer of that challenge. So let’s say Rita has the same challenge as Alison, they get fed into that sequence and let’s say, Dan’s got the same challenge as Danielle and Helen. It doesn’t matter what their industry is. It doesn’t matter, it’s about the fact that those groups of people at that moment have the same challenge and the content that I send them thereafter has to be that challenge. Yeah, because that is going to be 100% relevant for those people with that challenge.


Slightly nuanced, it’s slightly nuanced. Sometimes it’s going to be, they need to buy a whole different thing from everyone else. And they’re going to go down a different sequence. Sometimes in our business. Most of the time that the thing we sell most of the time, it’s the League to most people because we can help photographers. We can help people sell jewellery. That’s fine. All of those people are in our programme.


But the way we talk about them, to talk to them, it’s going to be different. If you know, somebody, if we know somebody sells courses, we’ll just say the word courses in stuff. And again, it’s not difficult to send one email and have a paragraph appear different depending on what,


But assuming the commonality for us again. So yeah, I’m hogging all your time, members, but assuming the commonality for us about, you know, we have problems in our small businesses every day and that’s what Mint existed to help, help sort that out. You know, it is about really getting to grips with what’s going on with people uniquely at that time, rather than just saying, well, you’re all creatives, I’m going to send you an email because you’re all in the creative industry. And yet every single person who’s a creative does their stuff differently. There is some commonality obviously, but you know, Vicky, Vicky Wade who’s on the call, I think, she doesn’t do the same as what Phil does. They’re both creative, but one makes handbags and purses and one takes photos. So as there’s commonality there, they’re completely different and the challenges will be completely different. So what you’re saying is every single, every single email has just gotta be relevant to the people who you’re sending it to.


Yeah. Yeah. And I think, remember that you, people are not on your list, for example, because they’re creative, they’re on your list or they’re in your world, whatever that looks like. And because they have a

problem to solve. And what’s interesting is you might have 10 creatives, but they’re all going to have a slightly, there might be three different problems within those 10 people. So you’re better to say you’re better to segment people by the problem they’re currently solving, because remember as well, the dynamic piece about this is that that problem is going to change and what we have to be conscious of is, and this is a whole other conversation and it gets kind of a bit heady at this point is, is actually audience and market maturity.


Like so, so each person is going to move and a lot of businesses don’t, you know, you don’t need to always sort of think about that to make a massive difference, honestly, at a small business scale. But yeah, you’re better to say, okay, who are all the people who have this problem? You know, audience, you don’t have enough audience. Okay. So that might end up that you have a plumber or you have a, you have a creative, you have, you can block them together rather than get all the grapes together. And they’ve all got different problems. That’s going to, that’s going to be difficult.


What I do want to say here is that this isn’t going to affect a hundred percent of your emails that you send, not even close. Like I, I don’t sit down, so I send most of the daily emails for this business. And I don’t sit down every day and write three different variations of an email or copy and paste different, different paragraphs in, I would say 70% of the emails that we send on the day-to-day basis, don’t get changed based on the data that we’ve got.


What we do use the data for is in very specific purposes to achieve a very specific short term outcome. Like the most difficult thing we’ve got is to turn a stranger into a customer or a customer into a repeat customer. Once we’ve done that, you’ve done most of the hard work and that’s what this is going to help you to do faster.


So we’ll put it in places where it serves a really short term purpose and then going forward, it’s just, if

I’m sending a testimonial in an email that I know I want to use two different testimonials, depending on who I’m talking to, that kind of thing. So I would say most of the time, you’re not going to have to write three versions of an email or change up the email depending on who you send it to. Most of the time, what we’ll tend to do is say, let’s just not send it to those people because we can’t help them. If this is an offer that only helps people who’ve got 10,000 subscribers or more, and then let’s not send it to the people who’ve got less than that. But for us, it’s collecting the data and use it for very specific circumstances. Resell members get more people to attend a webinar, get more people to come to your live event, like do use it for a specific purpose and then know that you’ve got it when you do need it. Most of the time, you’re not gonna have to write three emails every day instead of one.


Yeah. That, because basically what you’re saying is in the first instance, you really trying to solve those specific problems. And once you, once you start, it’s all the most specific problems. Once I get the information that’s really pertinent to them, then they can receive other emails because they’re already bought into your company, they’ve bought into you two people, you know, the thing of you too, you’ve helped the problem. You’ve solved the problem. You give them an immediate fix immediate solution. So they’re not going to then go, all right, I don’t, I don’t want anything else off here. So then you can be a little bit more, I don’t wanna use the word generic, but the 70% of stuff that doesn’t get changed every single year, once, you know, so it is, it is heartening to hear that, that clarification on use this for a very specific purpose, right?


You know, for us, get new members, for us, getting people to our tasters, for us, the events within the membership, right? Specific purpose, specific emails, but people who are bought into it after you’ve solved the problems their emails can then be part of a bigger thing.


One of the additional things is if you know, within the membership, you’ve got people who, who have a

particular problem, you might even add an extra email in the promotion if you’ve got a thing that’s solved. So if you’ve got a, a master class about cashflow and you know, some people have a bit of company struggle with cashflow, you might send all members a thing saying this is coming up, but then you might send an extra couple or one email, for example, or two emails to people who, you know, have had that problem to make sure they’ve seen it. But you don’t have to, and it’s not always practical to do that. You know, it’s, it’s always balancing practicality with results. I think on the base level, we should be finding out the problem and offering our stuff from the angle of solving that problem at the very minimum, because that’s going to increase your relevance every single time. Yeah.


And I think what we all have to remember guys is you are the experts on this, right? This is what you do, but what we’ve taken aback yonks ago, you actually know the amount of money you earn per subscriber in your newsletter database, right? There’s not person on this call that knows that. I’m going to stick my neck out and speak for you all our members. I don’t, I don’t think there’s anybody, including me, That would be able to say, you know, I have a hundred people in this newsletter database, and I know that I am $13 per one, and it’s stuck in my head because you guys know that because you have that data because you do this, you are the experts of this. This is your job. Your job is to do this for yourself and for us and to teach us to do it for yourself.


And what I’m hearing is, you know, the more effort we’re putting in, you get to a point that what you realise is that you get money and that you do get customers and you do keep that, that audience there and you are entertaining them because you’re actually putting the effort into doing that. But I, and whilst the rest of us, aren’t email marketeers extraordinaire, and have built a business on it. It is vital that we now start actually paying proper attention to this. If we’re not already, isn’t it, you know? Yeah.


Yeah. I mean, email’s the highest return. I mean, some of the most cleverer people than us have said email marketing is the highest return on investment activity any business can do at any stage. And you know, think about how little you spend on your email marketing platform that, you know, could be 200 quid a month or whatever. Sending an email out and, and turn that into sales is almost magical. You know, I’m still never taking that for granted.


Yeah. Irrespective of what you do as a business. I think on a very simple level, you could have new website, you could have a page where people put their name and email address in for lead magnet of some description. You can have that. And the thing that you do, like the product that you sell, the service that you offer, the thing that you sell, and if you had nothing else, you could have a really successful business. Like people worry about having a really beautiful website and that’s good to have, and it’s useful. And all those things like a brochure. But if you, if you, if you, if you could really strip your business right back and all you could really have was some sort of audience building mechanism like Instagram or a podcast or Facebook lives or something like that, an email list and the thing you sell, you have an amazing business.


And that that’s that’s thank you for that, Rob, because keeping it really simple for all of us who are times poor, and also skills poor. You know, we don’t all know what we’re doing and all the rest of it. I think, I think this is the point where I’m at certainly now, after all these years doing this is we’ve got to strip away the stuff that doesn’t work and what you are proving over and over again. And guys who are new, please go back and watch through the training that the lads have done this year, cause this is your fourth I think so now we’ve got four wonderful one after another. It all leads to each other. You know, if we can’t be inspired by you two who are sharing all of this with us, then you know, we need to be looking at ourselves because at the end of the day, like when Facebook went down, when Instagram went down, when WhatsApp went down the other day, all of a sudden went, oh, this would be interesting, if it all disappeared forever, or we should have done, we could have done, you know, we need different ways to be able to communicate with our customers and our potential customers all of the time.


And everybody chokes all of the life into 22 different platforms that nobody can keep up with. But yet, yet, you know, your website and your email marketing that’s yours and you earn it and it’s yours. And you know, what we’re hearing is keep it simple and also make it relevant, which surely has gotten to be the most important thing in the world. Keep it still relevant for that, for that audience. And you make sales, not always, but obviously for you two, I mean, you know, you’ve invested all that money in responsesuite, which obviously you’re going to tell us about now, but it is, it’s just extraordinary to hear your journey this year, actually. So thank you. I want to just say thank you for coming back time and time again for us this year to really open up certainly my mind, but all of our minds about what this doing this properly can give our small businesses.


And you nailed it. You know, simple relevance. If you do those two things simple and relevant, you’re doing much more than most people are. And while a lot of people are scratching around going, why am I not making any sales? We, after we asked the same question, which is what the bloody hell are you doing? Yeah. And like people, like when people say it was, we taught this on the podcast the other day, Rob has this thing where somebody said, I haven’t got time to do email marketing. And Rob said, well, what else are you doing? Like, I don’t understand like, the marketing is the number one thing that generates sales and businesses, right? That’s not our numbers. That’s really clever people. Who’ve done that. Who’ve done those numbers. If you have more time to do email marketing, you’re doing loads of sh*t you shouldn’t be doing, honestly.


Like I was doing Facebook lives every single day. How many sales did that, were made from that? None. Maybe, I mean, probably because I’m sh*t at Facebook lives, we send an email out and we’ve all, you gotta remember as well. Most of our emails come, I’m sorry. Most of our sales actually are generated from emails we wrote two years ago, which new people go through every single day and make sales. So it doesn’t take over your life. I spend less than 10 minutes a day doing my emails and we probably spent two hours a week about, we definitely spend two hours a week. Cause we have plotted in on our email marketing strategy. That’s all we do, Rob and I between us. We spend, we only, here’s a, here’s a shocking confession for you. We work two days a week. That is it.


Get lost, man. Really?


If that. Definitely a day and then usually a few hours on the second day.


A day and then up to two. Yeah.


Okay. Well, there you go, everybody, if that is not your ultimate dream where you can do loads in less time and actually enjoy your life more. Well, absolutely not. Absolutely not. Tell us about Responsesuite. Okay. I’m sorry. I’ve taken up all the questions. If anybody’s got any just tell us about responsesuite.


Yeah, this is obviously not a big pitch for responsesuite. That wasn’t the point at all. You can use any survey solution you want. We just think you should use responsesuite. So it’s a really cool survey platform. You can build surveys and then you can send them out. It hooks up with your email marketing system. It hooks up with your Facebook ads account. It hooks up with your productivity tools. It hooks up with everything. Basically somebody fills out a survey and then they’ll, they’ll be put into different Facebook advertising audiences.


They will be put into it. You can send it notifications to your productivity tools like slack and you can follow up with them and tasks so you can have it so that it puts them in a different tags and lists in your email marketing platform, et cetera. You can do everything we talked about and we’re developing all the time. It’s all built here in the UK. It’s cool. So if you want to check it out, you can do it. And what we’ll do is we’ll hook up a link for Nicola’s 20% discount off. We’ll hook you with that. Not a big pitch. If you want to use it, use it. If you wanna use something else, use something else.


I’d like to know right, does anybody actually have a question and I’ll shut up, let you answer somebody else’s questions. Do you want to knock the big slide off? So, and we’ll see each other. Thank you for that Lush. Right? Has anyone got any questions that, I will shush now, please. Just put your hand up. I think Rita is jumping right in.


I just want to say thanks so much, guys. That was a really useful session. Cause I’m, I’m a real advocate for email marketing and it’s something I’ve done for 30 years and it’s always worked for me, but it was so good to hear your fresh take on this and the bit about the questions that’s really made me think a little bit more about what I would do. And I think definitely need to get more information from the clients and definitely niche a bit more. But obviously not niche niche, just trying to be a little bit more targeted. Yeah. But great tips there. And thank you so much. Really enjoyed the session.


Anybody else got questions,


Questions or praise we’ve opened it up to questions or praise.


Yeah. You know, all the, all the ego stroking, which is absolutely necessary. Right. We have to know that we’re good at what we do. Does anybody else have any actual questions?


I want to say, and I think for everybody who’s new, like Alison and everybody what we’ll do is I’ll make sure we send a newsletter out to you with all of the links for all of the training, right? So you can go about and watch the whole lot instead of having to hover around and find it. Cause we’ll make that journey easy for you.


Anything else? Any other questions, right? If not, then we’ll end it now. And thank you so much. You two I really, really hope we can get you back for some live face to face stuff next year. Cause it’s just lush. It would be lovely to see your actual legs and that!